00;00;01;04 - 00;00;03;02 Yeah. Why don't. Actually, we don't. 00;00;03;02 - 00;00;04;21 Yeah, yeah. You can just hold your own microphone. 00;00;04;21 - 00;00;05;07 Yeah. 00;00;05;29 - 00;00;08;04 No, maybe I better hold on to see I make a lot of noise. 00;00;08;06 - 00;00;09;16 Oh, okay. 00;00;09;16 - 00;00;11;24 Ah, I could hold it for him. 00;00;12;00 - 00;00;13;29 This is the easiest to. 00;00;14;16 - 00;00;15;05 I got it. 00;00;15;10 - 00;00;18;00 Okay. Okay. 00;00;18;00 - 00;00;20;05 Is. Are we on? We're on. Oh, you're on. 00;00;21;03 - 00;00;21;14 Okay. 00;00;21;14 - 00;00;25;08 First, I guess I should just say that this is Cathy Ragland here with Tim Leary. 00;00;26;01 - 00;00;28;07 It's October 10th at this conference. 00;00;28;19 - 00;00;32;27 And first of all, we're talking about the recording. 00;00;32;27 - 00;00;36;10 I guess we can just start in general and you can talk about the accordion 00;00;36;10 - 00;00;39;18 and and its, you know, movement in Texas. 00;00;39;18 - 00;00;42;10 And maybe if you want to talk a little bit about the checks and how it's kind of 00;00;42;21 - 00;00;43;17 they brought that in 00;00;43;17 - 00;00;46;26 and maybe your your take on just how it sort of made its way around. 00;00;46;26 - 00;00;48;13 And and then we can get into some 00;00;48;13 - 00;00;51;10 of the more specific issues that I was talking about that just. 00;00;52;18 - 00;00;54;02 Well, if you if you look at 00;00;54;02 - 00;00;58;09 the checks in the 19th century in Texas, when they came over, 00;00;59;02 - 00;01;02;15 the accordion was was an instrument that they brought with them. 00;01;02;15 - 00;01;06;06 And it was mostly a house party instrument. 00;01;06;06 - 00;01;08;09 It was a instrument to be played at home. 00;01;08;09 - 00;01;12;11 And these were button accordions, the so-called diatonic accordions, 00;01;12;11 - 00;01;13;28 where you get a different tone each way. 00;01;13;28 - 00;01;15;29 They're set up like a harmonica. 00;01;15;29 - 00;01;21;25 And generally they'd be played around the house, maybe for a house party. 00;01;21;25 - 00;01;26;21 Sometimes they'd be played in connection with singing of Czech songs. 00;01;27;06 - 00;01;30;07 They weren't really an instrument to be used out 00;01;30;07 - 00;01;36;07 in a big public community musical events to a large extent, 00;01;36;07 - 00;01;41;26 because the the Czechs had a very strong tradition of brass band 00;01;42;12 - 00;01;45;19 music, and the brass bands would play 00;01;45;25 - 00;01;49;21 Sunday afternoon concerts where they would do overtures 00;01;49;21 - 00;01;52;21 and some classical pieces, but also marches. 00;01;53;07 - 00;01;58;00 And sometimes they'd break down into smaller ensembles and do dance music. 00;01;58;00 - 00;02;03;12 And typically that dance music, the music of the brass bands 00;02;03;24 - 00;02;06;17 back in the late 19th, early 20th century, didn't involve 00;02;06;17 - 00;02;10;00 much singing with it either because of the volume of the bands. 00;02;10;15 - 00;02;12;10 But what began to happen 00;02;13;17 - 00;02;15;24 in the thirties, and 00;02;15;24 - 00;02;19;08 especially more into the forties and into the fifties, 00;02;19;16 - 00;02;24;19 was that you began to get smaller, mostly brass kind of dance bands playing. 00;02;25;12 - 00;02;29;02 Sometimes they might use a piano, sometimes they might use 00;02;29;02 - 00;02;31;05 they assemble them. 00;02;31;11 - 00;02;36;06 This hammer dulcimer that appears in some of the the Czech bands in Texas, 00;02;36;06 - 00;02;40;27 but increasingly the accordion became an important kind of instrument 00;02;40;28 - 00;02;44;12 for recording mostly and 00;02;45;12 - 00;02;48;24 maybe taking an occasional lead. 00;02;48;24 - 00;02;52;27 And it served the function that a piano might, 00;02;52;27 - 00;02;55;19 but it was more portable and so forth. 00;02;55;27 - 00;03;01;16 And then as some of the bands began to shrink a little bit in size, an accordion 00;03;01;16 - 00;03;05;11 with its reedy sound could in some ways take the parts that were taken before 00;03;05;11 - 00;03;09;04 by clarinets or some of the the wind instruments 00;03;09;20 - 00;03;13;24 and another thing that began to happen, especially in the late thirties 00;03;13;24 - 00;03;18;08 and forward in time in the Czech bands, which you began to get guitars 00;03;18;10 - 00;03;21;28 coming into the band and sometimes the bass horn or tuba 00;03;21;28 - 00;03;25;27 dropping out, you'd have a string bass or eventually an electric bass. 00;03;26;10 - 00;03;30;03 That way you had bands that that could play a pretty eclectic repertoire. 00;03;30;03 - 00;03;31;04 They could do 00;03;32;13 - 00;03;35;08 the country music 00;03;35;08 - 00;03;39;02 and they could also do do the Czech music. 00;03;39;02 - 00;03;43;10 And, and an accordion would would blend pretty nicely with either style 00;03;43;10 - 00;03;47;08 because if you think of country music back in the forties, let's say, 00;03;48;00 - 00;03;51;17 whether it was Western Swing or some of the early honky tonk sounds, 00;03;52;04 - 00;03;55;05 the accordion was part of a lot of those kinds of bands. 00;03;55;05 - 00;03;59;07 So it was a it was a versatile instrument. 00;03;59;07 - 00;04;01;10 What about context, though, with the accordion? 00;04;01;10 - 00;04;05;12 Is that I mean, the accordions were played more in casual type. 00;04;05;25 - 00;04;07;14 Well. I mean. 00;04;07;14 - 00;04;10;14 Initially that was the main place where they were played 00;04;10;20 - 00;04;14;10 and they also continued to be played in that context. 00;04;14;10 - 00;04;18;12 But but what what you had when you had a shift from the accordion 00;04;18;12 - 00;04;22;13 coming from house parties into bigger bands, when, 00;04;22;14 - 00;04;24;15 when you had the accordion with the bigger bands, 00;04;24;15 - 00;04;27;26 it was generally the piano keyboard accordion which was more versatile. 00;04;27;26 - 00;04;30;18 Could play in more keys and was a little bit louder and so forth. 00;04;31;02 - 00;04;33;19 And the button accordion became or remain more 00;04;33;19 - 00;04;37;27 or less a home instrument for most bands. 00;04;37;27 - 00;04;42;04 Now, maybe in the last, I don't know, ten or 12 years or so, 00;04;43;23 - 00;04;46;08 the accordion, 00;04;46;08 - 00;04;51;20 I suppose because of the mixture in Texas with, with the Cajun and Zydeco 00;04;51;20 - 00;04;54;10 and also the conjunto bands with with the accordion, 00;04;54;27 - 00;04;57;18 I think you got some, some crossover and you got some 00;04;58;05 - 00;05;01;20 maybe a little more inventive playing or a little more consciousness 00;05;01;20 - 00;05;05;20 about the accordion in some of the the Czech bands. 00;05;05;20 - 00;05;11;03 And so it to some extent it emerged that that 00;05;11;05 - 00;05;14;02 that you would maybe get a player like that 00;05;14;03 - 00;05;18;06 like Jody McCullough or certain players who would 00;05;18;06 - 00;05;21;14 maybe make the accordion come out a little bit more. 00;05;22;10 - 00;05;26;21 One thing, though, that I thought was really interesting at your Czech 00;05;26;25 - 00;05;31;07 or at your Accordion Kings event in Texas, was that Alfred Roswell, 00;05;31;07 - 00;05;36;25 who years ago used to, you know, used to play button accordion at home 00;05;36;25 - 00;05;41;04 and maybe some at dances, but really had not featured it much with his. 00;05;41;04 - 00;05;46;27 His band played saxophone and did the Czech vocals instead, 00;05;46;27 - 00;05;50;28 he brought out a couple of different button accordions to play. 00;05;50;28 - 00;05;53;29 And whereas his brother Anton would would play 00;05;54;07 - 00;05;57;23 just pretty straight melody and little fills on the piano accordion. 00;05;58;08 - 00;06;01;26 Alfred began to work in little solos and songs 00;06;01;26 - 00;06;05;23 where the the old time button accordion was out front. 00;06;05;23 - 00;06;09;05 So here, I think, is a situation 00;06;09;05 - 00;06;11;23 where heightened exposure 00;06;12;06 - 00;06;16;18 to especially button accordion players, but also just to accordion players 00;06;16;18 - 00;06;17;13 in general 00;06;17;13 - 00;06;22;00 as as players of lead instruments has, at least in the case of the Brazils, 00;06;22;12 - 00;06;24;29 brought that instrument out a little bit more. 00;06;24;29 - 00;06;28;29 I think part of that had to do with what was happening with the Tejano 00;06;28;29 - 00;06;32;24 conjunto music because they at that when we put that performance on 00;06;32;24 - 00;06;34;15 and they all they wanted to do was meet 00;06;34;15 - 00;06;36;20 black women is I mean that was their biggest 00;06;36;20 - 00;06;39;13 and that's interesting because they had sort of forgotten 00;06;39;13 - 00;06;42;13 the button accordion and and taken on the piano accordion. 00;06;42;13 - 00;06;45;25 And now that seems to be, you know, they were wanting to go back to that. 00;06;45;25 - 00;06;49;01 And part of that has to do with what's happening in these other music forms. 00;06;49;01 - 00;06;50;19 Or at least, would you say. 00;06;50;19 - 00;06;55;06 Yeah, well, Flaco, because he's such an adventurous musician 00;06;55;06 - 00;06;59;02 and he's played with so many different people, he really is a 00;06;59;28 - 00;07;02;17 an ambassador of sorts to other cultures. 00;07;02;17 - 00;07;06;13 I know of several good accordion players up in Wisconsin, where 00;07;06;13 - 00;07;10;23 I'm from, who who love Flaco stuff and in fact have even started to 00;07;10;29 - 00;07;15;19 to play some of his tunes with their North Polka bands. 00;07;15;24 - 00;07;18;09 So it's, it's kind of interesting. 00;07;19;10 - 00;07;19;28 Yeah. 00;07;19;28 - 00;07;21;21 But the idea that it's brought the focus 00;07;21;21 - 00;07;25;08 back to the instrument within the state, you know, within that home, 00;07;25;21 - 00;07;27;26 you know, within these musicians who have been sort of 00;07;29;08 - 00;07;31;29 influencing one another through the years anyway. 00;07;31;29 - 00;07;34;28 And it's interesting that this outside I mean, the fact that there's been 00;07;35;00 - 00;07;38;03 some focus from the outside on, you know, like, oh. 00;07;38;14 - 00;07;39;03 Yeah, 00;07;40;06 - 00;07;42;02 of course, the accordion hole, 00;07;42;02 - 00;07;45;08 whole story in Texas is one of all this 00;07;45;20 - 00;07;49;06 this wild borrowing and mixing, because 00;07;50;16 - 00;07;53;28 except for the Czechs, really, it's not a 00;07;56;06 - 00;08;00;06 hard to call it an indigenous instrument, since it's only emerged in the 1820s. 00;08;00;06 - 00;08;04;08 But it didn't come into the other cultures that are playing it in Texas 00;08;04;08 - 00;08;07;06 until the turn of the century, year round about. 00;08;08;21 - 00;08;11;08 So it's, you know, there's there's always been 00;08;11;14 - 00;08;14;02 a certain amount of flow and exchange. 00;08;14;21 - 00;08;17;25 You know, I know you want me to talk a little bit about that, the context 00;08;17;25 - 00;08;20;28 in which the music has been played among among the Czechs and 00;08;22;19 - 00;08;23;25 the Czechs, among all the 00;08;23;25 - 00;08;27;17 Slavic groups in the United States, are the most rural. 00;08;27;26 - 00;08;32;27 There, predominantly in in farm areas. 00;08;32;27 - 00;08;37;08 And if you look at where they are, they're in in Wisconsin, 00;08;37;08 - 00;08;41;07 Minnesota, Iowa, 00;08;41;07 - 00;08;44;24 Nebraska, Kansas, and then going down into, uh, 00;08;45;03 - 00;08;48;22 into the eastern part in central part of part of Texas there. 00;08;49;04 - 00;08;54;18 So they kind of go from, from the upper Midwest down through the Great Plains 00;08;54;18 - 00;08;59;20 down in there, and all through those areas in the Czech communes. 00;08;59;20 - 00;09;04;21 These there are fraternal halls that are set up by these insurance 00;09;05;01 - 00;09;09;04 organizations, but they were also cultural organizations 00;09;09;04 - 00;09;11;13 where they would have these circles, these 00;09;14;01 - 00;09;14;20 events 00;09;14;20 - 00;09;18;07 and groups for keeping in shape physically. 00;09;18;07 - 00;09;22;19 They would have different programs, they would have ethnic language plays, 00;09;22;19 - 00;09;26;17 they might have a little lending library and so forth, and frequently 00;09;26;17 - 00;09;31;15 they would have a a dance in those those community halls and 00;09;32;17 - 00;09;34;06 that's been 00;09;34;06 - 00;09;37;06 in many ways the prime area, 00;09;37;18 - 00;09;42;15 at least from the late 19th century, up to the mid part of the century 00;09;42;15 - 00;09;46;18 for for Czech music to take place in these communities. 00;09;46;18 - 00;09;48;28 Though, over the last 00;09;48;28 - 00;09;53;20 15 or so years, there have been more kind of ethnic 00;09;53;20 - 00;09;58;11 and community festivals and also polka festivals 00;09;58;11 - 00;10;06;09 which have brought the music into those kinds of events as well. 00;10;06;09 - 00;10;09;00 What about the Saturday afternoon dances? 00;10;09;00 - 00;10;12;00 I don't know if they have those in Wisconsin or if that's something that's 00;10;13;03 - 00;10;15;12 really I don't know that that's something 00;10;15;12 - 00;10;18;17 that happens in the Mexican-American community. 00;10;18;17 - 00;10;21;21 I mean, the Saturday afternoon dances and the fact that that's still part 00;10;21;21 - 00;10;25;25 of the family, you know, that's still tied into gathering the family together 00;10;25;25 - 00;10;29;08 and afternoon, you know, spending the afternoon in these dance halls. 00;10;29;08 - 00;10;31;24 Is that something that is still happening? Do you know? 00;10;31;24 - 00;10;35;16 And I went down to the 00;10;35;18 - 00;10;38;17 the folklore meeting in San Antonio a few years ago, 00;10;38;17 - 00;10;44;04 and we we stopped in in west the the checkpoint of central Texas. 00;10;44;04 - 00;10;48;23 And drove into town there and stopped at a tavern. 00;10;48;26 - 00;10;53;14 And although it was Texas, not Wisconsin, where I'm from, it it 00;10;53;25 - 00;10;59;00 it seemed like I was at home because I was in this tavern 00;10;59;00 - 00;11;02;15 and it was a tavern that was also part of someone's home 00;11;02;20 - 00;11;06;27 and they were kids running around and their pet animals 00;11;06;27 - 00;11;11;20 and so forth and had a beer and had some food to eat. And 00;11;12;21 - 00;11;13;13 that's pretty 00;11;13;13 - 00;11;15;28 common in a lot of Czech communities. 00;11;16;17 - 00;11;20;14 Afternoon gatherings, especially on the weekends and actually 00;11;20;14 - 00;11;25;29 especially on and Sunday, have been common where you go to church in the morning. 00;11;26;12 - 00;11;30;23 Then in the afternoon you'd go to the the beer garden or the tavern and 00;11;31;26 - 00;11;34;25 families would go and you, you know, you have something to eat. 00;11;34;25 - 00;11;39;02 And there'd be a dance hall and a band and you'd have something to drink 00;11;39;02 - 00;11;39;28 and you'd dance. 00;11;39;28 - 00;11;45;23 And then you'd late in the afternoon you'd go and do your chores or, or whatever. 00;11;45;23 - 00;11;48;08 And that's, that's not that uncommon. 00;11;48;08 - 00;11;50;12 It's still yeah, it's still today. 00;11;50;24 - 00;11;53;14 The other thing kind of related to that is that 00;11;54;17 - 00;11;57;20 among the Czech groups that I know of in Texas, 00;11;58;01 - 00;12;00;12 they're all named after families. 00;12;01;01 - 00;12;04;02 And they seemed very much to be family bands. 00;12;04;02 - 00;12;07;15 And they're also not and I may be wrong about this, 00;12;07;15 - 00;12;13;01 but not so much in the professional side of, you know, performing as, 00;12;13;01 - 00;12;14;21 I don't know, there conjunto groups, you know, 00;12;14;21 - 00;12;17;26 there are some, a lot of family members, but also there's a very 00;12;18;05 - 00;12;21;05 you know, there's an industry that's sort of part of that, too. 00;12;21;14 - 00;12;25;03 And I'm just wondering if that's because a lot of the Czechs are still, 00;12;25;04 - 00;12;28;21 you know, in these smaller towns and they're still tied to the farm, 00;12;29;04 - 00;12;30;24 you know, they're still farming. 00;12;30;24 - 00;12;34;04 And like the royals, for example, is a good example of that. 00;12;34;10 - 00;12;38;09 I don't know if you. 00;12;38;09 - 00;12;43;02 Well, certainly, I mean, think of it here. 00;12;44;05 - 00;12;46;11 But if if that happens. 00;12;46;11 - 00;12;50;22 A lot of polka bands are our family bands or at least 00;12;50;27 - 00;12;55;10 have they all have a core of family members. 00;12;55;15 - 00;12;59;26 It is this is true of a lot of I suppose traditional bands anyway, 00;12;59;26 - 00;13;03;25 where people do learn it in the home or the community and from relatives. 00;13;03;25 - 00;13;08;28 But you know, there is a pattern among polka bands where you play for 00;13;09;04 - 00;13;13;27 four weddings, you play for church dinners and different kinds of events and the 00;13;14;06 - 00;13;19;00 the number of bands that that do that with in a very small area and 00;13;20;04 - 00;13;22;06 who just work their jobs and don't think 00;13;22;24 - 00;13;26;24 too much about promoting the band beyond just getting their local gigs 00;13;26;26 - 00;13;30;11 is it's pretty high as a proportion 00;13;30;11 - 00;13;34;29 compared to those who who may have a radio show 00;13;34;29 - 00;13;38;18 and set up a record label and try to book a lot of dates and 00;13;39;28 - 00;13;41;08 worry about an act 00;13;41;08 - 00;13;45;12 and having, you know, matching uniforms and 00;13;45;16 - 00;13;49;23 and that sort of thing, that that's that's not that unusual. 00;13;49;23 - 00;13;51;28 But it's kind of the 00;13;53;07 - 00;13;55;21 I wouldn't say the extreme case, but it's 00;13;59;11 - 00;14;00;18 it's a smaller number 00;14;00;18 - 00;14;03;16 that that often in that direction. 00;14;04;22 - 00;14;06;13 Is that changing at all, do you think? 00;14;06;13 - 00;14;09;16 I just don't know enough to really know, to tell you the truth. 00;14;09;18 - 00;14;10;21 You know, when I was in. 00;14;10;21 - 00;14;13;22 Texas, I thought maybe it would be kind of interesting to touch on is 00;14;13;22 - 00;14;18;12 just some of what you talked about today about just the study of 00;14;18;16 - 00;14;21;29 polka music and and the accordion, too, and the fact that 00;14;23;06 - 00;14;25;18 people have really not 00;14;25;18 - 00;14;28;20 looked at this music folklorist, ethnomusicologist and, 00;14;28;20 - 00;14;33;02 you know, people studying music in general have sort of ignored this. And 00;14;35;28 - 00;14;37;13 if you think that there's 00;14;37;13 - 00;14;40;12 becoming more interest in studying this music, 00;14;40;12 - 00;14;45;03 and if the people themselves are aware that what they're doing is 00;14;45;21 - 00;14;48;21 is, you know, a form of folk music or where they're, 00;14;49;02 - 00;14;51;17 you know, where they are with it and, you know, maybe 00;14;52;08 - 00;14;55;26 on the accordion to, you know, how that kind of figures into it. 00;14;55;26 - 00;14;59;06 Because a lot of people who think the accordion is 00;14;59;06 - 00;15;01;20 even really an instrument worth your study and. 00;15;03;19 - 00;15;06;09 Yeah, for me, it's it's a little baffling 00;15;06;09 - 00;15;10;14 why polka music has not received 00;15;10;26 - 00;15;14;27 much serious attention from scholars or aficionados of folk music. 00;15;15;04 - 00;15;17;18 Up to this point, I 00;15;18;08 - 00;15;22;08 it may be because it's it's seen as is too common 00;15;22;08 - 00;15;24;13 and maybe because it's the music of 00;15;26;15 - 00;15;27;21 European or white 00;15;27;21 - 00;15;31;02 working class folks as opposed to people of color. 00;15;31;02 - 00;15;34;05 It may be that because it's not played, 00;15;34;13 - 00;15;37;28 you know, far away and the Appalachian Mountains are 00;15;39;13 - 00;15;39;21 it may 00;15;39;21 - 00;15;43;03 be just too near to the too many people in 00;15;43;03 - 00;15;46;10 and to kind of 00;15;46;10 - 00;15;48;06 too much associated with a lower 00;15;48;06 - 00;15;51;29 or working class or rural people. 00;15;52;10 - 00;15;56;06 I, I just I'm sort of baffled about why it's it's 00;15;56;11 - 00;16;00;08 been ignored up to this point. 00;16;00;08 - 00;16;03;05 The Lawrence Welk phenomenon, of course, comes in there. 00;16;03;05 - 00;16;07;26 He's perhaps the best known accordion player to the general public. 00;16;07;26 - 00;16;11;03 And although he came from traditional roots 00;16;11;03 - 00;16;14;20 in a German Russian family in rural North Dakota, he 00;16;15;10 - 00;16;18;26 he made it big, really, by kind of playing pop, novelty 00;16;19;02 - 00;16;25;02 and sort of so-called Mickey Mouse versions of popular songs. 00;16;25;02 - 00;16;28;19 And he, of course, had a rather corny 00;16;28;19 - 00;16;31;04 and straight laced smiley face 00;16;31;21 - 00;16;33;26 approach to music, 00;16;34;08 - 00;16;37;12 especially on his champagne bubble 00;16;37;26 - 00;16;41;27 blue haired, Jared tall, you know, TV show. 00;16;42;16 - 00;16;45;26 And so I think people looked at what he did 00;16;45;26 - 00;16;49;04 and thought, oh my God, this is horrible stuff. But 00;16;52;04 - 00;16;53;03 what Lawrence Welk 00;16;53;03 - 00;16;55;26 does is is a far cry from what 00;16;56;14 - 00;16;59;19 most polka musicians do on his programs. 00;16;59;19 - 00;17;02;23 He'd only work in a polka every every once in a while. 00;17;03;10 - 00;17;07;19 So there are a number of different explanations a person can throw out. 00;17;07;19 - 00;17;10;23 But but I do think that that polka music is 00;17;10;23 - 00;17;13;08 starting to get 00;17;14;09 - 00;17;16;15 in and accordion music as well, 00;17;16;16 - 00;17;19;18 starting to get some some recognition 00;17;19;20 - 00;17;22;17 and partly I think it has to do with the fact that 00;17;24;03 - 00;17;27;29 that people who are omnivores when it comes to different 00;17;27;29 - 00;17;30;20 kinds of music are 00;17;32;16 - 00;17;34;23 running out of things to taste. 00;17;34;28 - 00;17;38;02 And so, you know, here's something that's come along. 00;17;38;02 - 00;17;42;21 And I think it's partly because certain people, whether it's, 00;17;42;25 - 00;17;47;21 you know, Carl Finch and Brave Combo or, you know, me and Richard March 00;17;47;25 - 00;17;52;07 shooting our mouths off or or maybe the success of of 00;17;55;00 - 00;17;58;12 conjunto bands that play polkas. 00;17;58;17 - 00;18;01;13 And maybe people are waking up and saying, hey, 00;18;01;15 - 00;18;04;19 there's a lot of other things that are that are going on. And 00;18;06;13 - 00;18;09;27 and it may be that they also are discovering that 00;18;10;14 - 00;18;13;15 those are the things that are right underneath their noses, 00;18;13;15 - 00;18;17;11 that they don't have to go hundreds of miles away. 00;18;17;11 - 00;18;20;26 They can just, you know, go to some community 00;18;20;26 - 00;18;23;26 hall on the wrong side of town or out in the country or something. 00;18;23;26 - 00;18;27;09 And there it is. 00;18;27;09 - 00;18;29;05 What about the. Live or this. 00;18;29;05 - 00;18;33;01 The fact that the instrument has been sort of raised to a level of virtuosity? 00;18;33;01 - 00;18;36;04 I mean, you know, look at flock women is who has turned 00;18;36;04 - 00;18;40;02 the instrument into a literal I mean and that really is that 00;18;40;25 - 00;18;45;07 the fact that being you know an instrument that you can be a virtuoso or a master 00;18;45;07 - 00;18;49;24 of, it's really never been associated with the accordion until very recently. 00;18;51;22 - 00;18;54;02 Well, I suppose I don't think he's going to agree with that. 00;18;54;03 - 00;18;56;16 No. I mean, there 00;18;57;19 - 00;19;00;12 I guess it depends on whether people have been paying it. 00;19;00;12 - 00;19;02;25 To those who've been paying attention to the accordion. 00;19;02;26 - 00;19;06;20 I suppose it's true to say that for the general population 00;19;07;01 - 00;19;09;09 they haven't thought about the accordion too much. 00;19;10;07 - 00;19;14;29 Certainly those who have or paid attention know that that that there have always 00;19;14;29 - 00;19;18;19 been a lot of whizzes out there on the accordion, but 00;19;20;25 - 00;19;23;23 yeah, I suppose you get some hot players like Flaco coming along 00;19;23;23 - 00;19;27;22 and all of a sudden people realize that that that Donn Gray like 00;19;27;22 - 00;19;31;07 or Carl Hardwick or some of these guys in the upper Midwest, 00;19;31;23 - 00;19;33;29 you know, they can just they can play anything. 00;19;33;29 - 00;19;34;27 They can improvise. 00;19;34;27 - 00;19;36;27 They can do all sorts of wild stuff. 00;19;37;22 - 00;19;40;00 Before, though, you're asking me about 00;19;41;05 - 00;19;42;09 the the 00;19;42;09 - 00;19;45;18 consciousness among the Czech people of their the history 00;19;45;26 - 00;19;51;04 history of their own music, 00;19;51;04 - 00;19;55;18 the most serious and kind of dedicated 00;19;56;14 - 00;19;59;09 traditional musicians in in in any tradition, 00;19;59;09 - 00;20;05;07 I will have usually a real strong sense of, of, of heritage, 00;20;05;07 - 00;20;08;15 and they'll have a strong sense of who influenced them or who. 00;20;08;15 - 00;20;10;17 The remarkable players were. 00;20;10;18 - 00;20;13;14 And they'll be full of anecdotes about that. 00;20;13;28 - 00;20;17;22 They'll have an appreciation for anybody who's going to the effort to 00;20;18;22 - 00;20;21;04 gather up old photographs or recordings 00;20;21;04 - 00;20;23;20 or handbills or to take a serious interest. 00;20;25;10 - 00;20;26;12 They get really excited. 00;20;26;12 - 00;20;29;20 And it's this is certainly true of polka musicians. 00;20;29;20 - 00;20;34;07 They are very appreciative of 00;20;36;09 - 00;20;38;09 any kind of 00;20;38;16 - 00;20;41;05 serious inquiry into what they're doing, any effort 00;20;41;05 - 00;20;47;06 to treat the music with some circumspection and respect 00;20;47;06 - 00;20;51;10 and to try to document it how they they like it. 00;20;51;10 - 00;20;53;26 And they also are pretty sophisticated 00;20;55;16 - 00;20;56;26 commentators and 00;20;56;26 - 00;20;59;16 the kinds of things that are important to to pay attention, to 00;21;00;24 - 00;21;02;09 know, know. 00;21;02;09 - 00;21;05;14 I could say something to what you were asking before about about language. 00;21;05;14 - 00;21;09;18 And one thing that's fairly characteristic of Texas, Czech 00;21;09;18 - 00;21;13;14 singing or Texas, Czech music is good singing, 00;21;13;29 - 00;21;17;06 usually with harmony as well. 00;21;17;06 - 00;21;20;25 And a lot of these songs are old house 00;21;20;25 - 00;21;24;05 party songs that come out of the 19th century. 00;21;24;05 - 00;21;27;15 And a lot of them were not that the tunes were played, 00;21;27;15 - 00;21;31;17 but they weren't sung so much by the the older brass bands, 00;21;32;14 - 00;21;36;12 at least in the era when you couldn't sing or couldn't make themselves 00;21;36;12 - 00;21;40;25 heard too well over over the the sound of the instruments. 00;21;40;25 - 00;21;44;18 But with these smaller bands with accordions and guitars and saxophones 00;21;44;18 - 00;21;48;06 and systems, the singing has really come through. 00;21;48;06 - 00;21;48;24 And whether it's 00;21;51;04 - 00;21;54;03 Trevino Ruzicka, 00;21;54;03 - 00;21;56;24 Black Rose or or 00;21;58;26 - 00;21;59;27 You They or 00;21;59;27 - 00;22;02;29 some of these titles which the donkey at the mill 00;22;03;11 - 00;22;08;15 but there are a lot of great songs that that people do do sing in that language. 00;22;08;15 - 00;22;12;11 And a lot of the older singers, the people who are say in their fifties 00;22;12;11 - 00;22;17;21 or so, grew up speaking that language and usually speak it pretty well, or 00;22;17;21 - 00;22;21;04 certainly speak it well enough to sing it the way it's supposed to sound. 00;22;22;15 - 00;22;24;05 Yeah, I understand some of the younger people 00;22;24;05 - 00;22;26;03 that are playing or having to learn, you know, 00;22;26;03 - 00;22;28;15 because they really didn't grow up speaking the language. 00;22;28;15 - 00;22;32;15 But more recently they've been they were had gotten away from it, 00;22;32;15 - 00;22;33;09 we're seeing in English. 00;22;33;09 - 00;22;36;17 But now they're getting back and they're learning the songs in check. 00;22;37;00 - 00;22;39;27 So what some of the younger musicians have told me, yeah. 00;22;41;01 - 00;22;41;16 You got to 00;22;41;16 - 00;22;44;16 be able to sing it in the Czech language and you also have. 00;22;44;16 - 00;22;45;00 To import it. 00;22;45;00 - 00;22;49;14 Now, for some reason it seems to be, you know, they're consciously doing that. 00;22;49;27 - 00;22;52;07 You've got to be able to sing it and you got to be able to 00;22;52;08 - 00;22;53;15 to know what the words mean. 00;22;53;15 - 00;22;59;11 And you got to be able to pronounce the words in a way that you won't make. 00;22;59;11 - 00;23;01;15 The people who know how the words ought to be pronounced 00;23;01;15 - 00;23;04;19 laugh and think you're an idiot who can't even talk, you know? 00;23;05;26 - 00;23;06;18 But this is true. 00;23;06;18 - 00;23;08;25 This issue of language is real important. 00;23;08;25 - 00;23;13;01 And as far as just keeping the music alive and I think for a while there 00;23;13;15 - 00;23;19;07 when or at least there was some concern that this music had been lost in Texas. 00;23;19;07 - 00;23;22;06 And I think part of that is because the language had been lost. 00;23;22;06 - 00;23;24;18 And now there's more of a conscious effort 00;23;24;18 - 00;23;27;05 to not only bring the music back, but the language as well. 00;23;27;18 - 00;23;31;21 I don't know if you've encountered that and if you think that's true or. 00;23;32;05 - 00;23;32;21 Well. 00;23;33;10 - 00;23;38;13 There there's a sort of ongoing debate on the polka scene about 00;23;39;21 - 00;23;42;02 whether people should 00;23;42;02 - 00;23;47;17 should sing in the old language or whether they need to do American polkas 00;23;48;03 - 00;23;51;05 or whether you need to do a verse in in the old language, 00;23;51;05 - 00;23;55;13 and then one in English. 00;23;55;13 - 00;23;57;29 People come down on all different sides of this issue. 00;23;57;29 - 00;24;02;20 And oftentimes out at a gig, they'll they'll sort of mix up what what they do. 00;24;03;03 - 00;24;07;18 But I think for those musicians who are concerned about 00;24;08;10 - 00;24;11;24 an ethnic as aspect of their music, and particularly 00;24;11;29 - 00;24;16;06 for Czechs who come from rural areas where they're they're part of a community 00;24;16;06 - 00;24;20;24 that is that Czech community, that that language is is important. 00;24;21;05 - 00;24;25;02 And it's important even if you don't know what it means. 00;24;25;25 - 00;24;30;27 The young people, I think even they like to hear it, even though they they can't 00;24;31;27 - 00;24;35;22 pick up more than a word or two. 00;24;35;22 - 00;24;37;23 So we can stop it. 00;24;37;23 - 00;24;39;15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00;24;39;15 - 00;24;41;12 I'm a cut out. 00;24;41;27 - 00;24;42;25 Thanks. Sure. 00;24;42;25 - 00;24;45;16 And 25 minutes on him. And, you know, whatever. 00;24;45;20 - 00;24;47;02 We do, we haven't. It's a 60. 00;24;47;02 - 00;24;49;07 So you can do what you need. 00;24;49;08 - 00;24;51;21 What you need to do is go and put the phones on 00;24;52;10 - 00;24;57;26 and I should peak around that black 12, which I probably about the same as Jim. 00;24;57;26 - 00;25;01;03 And you just need if you want to talk to me, 00;25;01;03 - 00;25;03;17 you want to be about like about like this for me. 00;25;03;17 - 00;25;05;04 And actually I can do it like that. 00;25;05;04 - 00;25;08;06 And then if you want to put yourself on the tape, you need to pull it back. 00;25;08;17 - 00;25;08;26 Go ahead. 00;25;08;26 - 00;25;09;26 Pull it back. Just. 00;25;09;26 - 00;25;10;23 Yeah, okay. 00;25;10;23 - 00;25;12;01 Yeah, I can hear it. Yeah. 00;25;12;01 - 00;25;14;09 And you'll hear if you hear a cable noise, you know, 00;25;14;09 - 00;25;16;21 you just need to avoid jiggling the cable too much and stuff like that 00;25;17;06 - 00;25;19;16 and just do it in a relaxed way if you need to extend it. 00;25;19;21 - 00;25;22;01 So you're not holding this out too much from your body like 00;25;22;12 - 00;25;25;04 if you can find a way to even brace it and hold it, that doesn't bother you. 00;25;25;04 - 00;25;27;22 That may be okay for now, but if you if you get tired, 00;25;27;22 - 00;25;31;20 just change your position and brace it under your arm and it'll be easier. 00;25;31;20 - 00;25;32;06 Okay, 00;25;33;19 - 00;25;35;19 so if we 00;25;35;19 - 00;25;37;25 maybe I should introduce this so that we can keep track. 00;25;37;26 - 00;25;39;26 Okay, it's on and we're still rolling. 00;25;39;26 - 00;25;43;02 Okay, so, yeah, this is Cathy Raglan again. 00;25;43;02 - 00;25;47;18 It's October 10th and I'm here with Nick Spitzer at the conference 00;25;47;18 - 00;25;51;14 and we're talking about accordion music in Texas and Nick, 00;25;51;14 - 00;25;53;23 I guess we can start with the real basic question 00;25;54;29 - 00;25;56;03 about 00;25;57;14 - 00;25;59;27 just accordion, multicultural, 00;25;59;27 - 00;26;02;18 you know, accordion music all across Texas. 00;26;02;18 - 00;26;06;02 And Matthew, I'm not sure really what, 00;26;06;22 - 00;26;10;17 you know, you can tell me about that, what your research has been and as far as 00;26;12;00 - 00;26;15;25 just the different groups that you've dealt with and accordion 00;26;15;25 - 00;26;19;14 music and, you know, maybe you just can talk about that. 00;26;19;20 - 00;26;23;24 Well, the accordion is a great way to look at ethnic relationships in Texas. 00;26;24;04 - 00;26;25;22 I mean, I think the accordion, 00;26;25;22 - 00;26;28;07 because it's been played by someone in different groups, 00;26;28;13 - 00;26;30;18 all with their own styles, as well as with styles 00;26;30;18 - 00;26;32;07 that indicate their interrelations. 00;26;32;07 - 00;26;37;21 And it's a wonderful way to kind of hear what's going on in the history and 00;26;38;03 - 00;26;41;00 and the history and the current ethnography of Texas. 00;26;42;00 - 00;26;43;01 The areas that I know the 00;26;43;01 - 00;26;46;06 most about would have to do with the 00;26;46;06 - 00;26;47;24 outposts of the old Spanish 00;26;47;24 - 00;26;51;29 and French empires, which basically, you know, were competing 00;26;52;03 - 00;26;55;05 and bordered on what is now roughly the Texas Louisiana border. 00;26;55;05 - 00;26;58;11 I mean, the Louisiana Purchase didn't include Texas from France. 00;26;59;19 - 00;27;02;11 And, you know, but that's France and Spain, you know. 00;27;02;11 - 00;27;06;19 And so when we're out in the parking lot talking to Willie Davis and Santiago 00;27;06;19 - 00;27;10;27 Humanas, it's like two descendants of the Spanish and French empire are conversing. 00;27;10;27 - 00;27;12;15 You know, that's really interesting. 00;27;12;15 - 00;27;15;27 Of course, the case also goes that you've got 00;27;16;18 - 00;27;20;03 African influence because of the Caribbean in migration into Louisiana 00;27;21;01 - 00;27;24;22 and the slave plantation culture of Louisiana and East Texas. 00;27;25;01 - 00;27;27;21 So there's there's an old world of Africa there. 00;27;27;27 - 00;27;31;12 There's an old world of Europe and Spain and France and their two empires. 00;27;31;20 - 00;27;36;03 And then there's more recent immigrants in the Old World to Texas, more 00;27;36;03 - 00;27;39;07 the classic American immigrant concept, which would be the Czechs 00;27;39;07 - 00;27;42;18 and the Poles and the Moravian who came in the 19th century. 00;27;42;18 - 00;27;45;28 I know less about them because they seem to be 00;27;46;03 - 00;27;50;03 a little less part of the overall Creoles aspect of it. 00;27;50;09 - 00;27;52;04 On the other hand, you could say that 00;27;52;04 - 00;27;55;13 they're very much a part of it in the sense that the Bohemians 00;27;55;26 - 00;27;58;08 and the Germans especially seem 00;27;58;08 - 00;28;01;24 to have introduced the according to the area, to these very populations 00;28;02;02 - 00;28;06;01 that now have made it hip and acceptable and popular as a neat 00;28;06;01 - 00;28;10;06 ethnic instrument at a national level, namely Creoles, Cajuns and Texas Mexicans. 00;28;10;16 - 00;28;14;01 So there's a lot of interesting interrelations going on there. 00;28;14;07 - 00;28;17;28 And I've said to Jim a couple of times that I think that if the Czechs 00;28;18;11 - 00;28;21;05 had a longer standing history with African American 00;28;21;05 - 00;28;24;23 populations the same way the French and the Spanish have relations to 00;28;25;27 - 00;28;28;06 African-American and or the Spanish to Indian, 00;28;28;15 - 00;28;29;05 that there 00;28;29;05 - 00;28;32;26 would be a kind of a realization there that would make it having a broader appeal 00;28;33;00 - 00;28;35;13 than just sort of the interior of their own ethnic group. 00;28;35;20 - 00;28;37;23 Instead, what you get is the Czechs and the others 00;28;37;23 - 00;28;41;12 assimilating rather than realizing that is looking to a mainstream ideal, 00;28;41;12 - 00;28;44;14 a bit more rock and roll, country and western come in there a great deal. 00;28;44;23 - 00;28;48;23 You don't hear them having an Afro or an Hispanic influence too much really, 00;28;48;23 - 00;28;51;16 compared to these other more Latinate populations 00;28;51;16 - 00;28;54;07 that were earlier and part of that old colonial experience. 00;28;54;15 - 00;28;56;10 So there's there's things like that going on. 00;28;56;10 - 00;28;59;08 And I mean, you can just go on and on about how this stuff all unfolds upon 00;28;59;08 - 00;28;59;23 one another. 00;29;00;28 - 00;29;02;12 In Texas itself, 00;29;02;12 - 00;29;06;05 of course, East Texas, you've had migration 00;29;06;05 - 00;29;09;15 since the 19th century from French Louisiana, and then it picks up during 00;29;11;10 - 00;29;14;25 the oil period of growth at the turn of the century. 00;29;14;25 - 00;29;15;08 And then 00;29;15;08 - 00;29;19;25 and then World War Two was shipbuilding in Beaumont and Port Arthur and Houston. 00;29;19;25 - 00;29;23;03 And then just that, I mean, Texas outstripped Louisiana 00;29;23;03 - 00;29;27;11 as a as a place, you know, as an economic sphere in the 20th century, 00;29;28;06 - 00;29;30;16 based largely on oil and other things. 00;29;30;16 - 00;29;32;21 But so it was a place for people to leave 00;29;32;21 - 00;29;36;18 economic, you know, oppression or insularity in Louisiana. 00;29;36;18 - 00;29;40;00 And so you have a lot of strong Cajun and Creole migration 00;29;40;23 - 00;29;44;13 to urban centers Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange, and then on to Houston, 00;29;44;18 - 00;29;47;26 which is kind of the most eastern major Cajun Creole 00;29;48;05 - 00;29;51;09 settlement point other than going on all the way to California. 00;29;52;14 - 00;29;55;17 So from from Houston back to the Louisiana border 00;29;55;17 - 00;30;00;28 in the sort of Gulf Coast region of Texas, you have that all that kind of stuff. 00;30;00;28 - 00;30;04;07 And there is a kind of a Cajun country, 00;30;04;07 - 00;30;07;21 Western scene that results from that French country, western. 00;30;07;21 - 00;30;10;00 You get it in Louisiana a bit, too, 00;30;10;00 - 00;30;12;07 where you do have, in a sense, a new realization 00;30;12;07 - 00;30;15;10 between Cajuns and Anglos and then the dominant rural 00;30;15;10 - 00;30;19;05 music of country and Anglo style in the oil fields and on the job. 00;30;19;22 - 00;30;22;06 And then for for the the Creoles, 00;30;22;06 - 00;30;25;21 you have a more of a gravitation towards Afro America. 00;30;25;29 - 00;30;27;29 So the Creoles leave behind a bit their French 00;30;27;29 - 00;30;30;18 Caribbean complexities of rhythm in their their speech 00;30;30;25 - 00;30;33;21 and they become more urban black Americans. 00;30;33;21 - 00;30;36;22 And so the music in the cities of Texas begins to synthesize 00;30;36;22 - 00;30;38;17 more and more with rhythm and blues. 00;30;38;17 - 00;30;41;23 But there are some particularities about Texas Zydeco, for example, 00;30;41;23 - 00;30;45;03 that reflect the way people came from Louisiana, for example. 00;30;45;14 - 00;30;49;29 It was the most disenfranchized people that left the rural plantation 00;30;50;07 - 00;30;53;11 zones, the people that didn't have land except the sharecroppers, 00;30;53;19 - 00;30;56;12 as opposed to the Creoles that did have land and inherited it 00;30;56;12 - 00;30;59;28 in some cases and in other cases got it by squatting and etc.. 00;31;00;08 - 00;31;04;20 So the result is that the more African sort of populations, 00;31;04;20 - 00;31;08;02 which were much less likely in the cast color society of Louisiana 00;31;08;24 - 00;31;11;20 to not be enfranchised, were the ones that went to Houston. 00;31;11;28 - 00;31;15;15 So the Houston Zydeco has a real interesting Afrobeat to it 00;31;15;19 - 00;31;19;05 that you don't get in some of the even the cities of Louisiana. 00;31;19;17 - 00;31;21;29 So there's some interesting selections going on like that, 00;31;22;17 - 00;31;24;13 you know, in this whole ethnic mix. 00;31;24;13 - 00;31;28;14 What about some of the issues of just that that come up in 00;31;28;14 - 00;31;32;00 some of the songs that the Creoles were playing in Texas? 00;31;32;00 - 00;31;34;06 Did they have to do with migration? 00;31;34;06 - 00;31;37;03 Did they have to do with, you know, finding themselves in this new, 00;31;37;27 - 00;31;40;17 you know, in Texas and having split up from their family? 00;31;40;17 - 00;31;45;09 I mean, are there songs that are related to that movement a lot more that kind? 00;31;45;16 - 00;31;51;07 Well, there's two basic song making kind of tendencies in Cajun and Creole music. 00;31;51;07 - 00;31;53;15 The Cajun tendency is is to sort of 00;31;54;22 - 00;31;55;26 project kind 00;31;55;26 - 00;31;58;18 of a pain of or usually pain of relations. 00;31;59;18 - 00;32;02;20 There's going to be death or separation because lovers split up. 00;32;03;27 - 00;32;08;11 There's, you know, that kind of thing that you get a lot of. 00;32;08;11 - 00;32;09;24 And then there's 00;32;10;08 - 00;32;13;07 a bit more kind of the blues, the experiential sort of thing 00;32;13;07 - 00;32;14;18 that can be pain. It could not. 00;32;14;18 - 00;32;16;18 It could be more in the blue suede shoes 00;32;16;18 - 00;32;18;14 sort of variety, a little bit more jocular. 00;32;18;14 - 00;32;20;02 And here we are, we're at the party. 00;32;20;02 - 00;32;22;16 Let's celebrate kind of stuff. 00;32;22;16 - 00;32;24;22 So the text in both Cajun 00;32;24;22 - 00;32;28;12 and Creole music has never been that strongly. 00;32;28;12 - 00;32;30;19 Say, like the corrido a story text. 00;32;30;25 - 00;32;35;01 It's been much more experiential, personal, emotive sort of stuff from 00;32;35;06 - 00;32;38;28 from love to love, loss to death to, hey, I feel good 00;32;39;05 - 00;32;42;23 and it ranges from Euro to Afro versions of those kinds of things. 00;32;43;21 - 00;32;45;25 So the kind of text that you get about 00;32;45;25 - 00;32;49;27 the migration is couched in terms of the separation of family and lovers. 00;32;50;04 - 00;32;51;15 Namely the big one is 00;32;51;15 - 00;32;55;01 do marketable tonight I going Texas ground Texas good big Texas 00;32;55;12 - 00;33;00;18 and that is fundamentally a Cajun song that was picked up by the Creole. 00;33;00;18 - 00;33;02;19 It's not really a Creole song, but it can be done. 00;33;02;27 - 00;33;03;13 Zydeco. 00;33;03;13 - 00;33;06;01 It's a it's usually done as a two step. 00;33;06;28 - 00;33;10;10 I think some people do it as a waltz, but it's actually, interestingly 00;33;10;10 - 00;33;13;16 enough, the tune that Hank Williams used for jambalaya, it's the same tune. 00;33;14;19 - 00;33;16;11 So that's really the one big one. 00;33;16;11 - 00;33;19;17 Then in Zydeco, actually, there's a more recent R&B one 00;33;19;27 - 00;33;22;25 that's about Zydeco from the early sixties by Clarence born 00;33;22;25 - 00;33;25;04 Tom Garlow called 00;33;27;26 - 00;33;29;12 Zydeco 00;33;29;28 - 00;33;31;09 Bontemps Roulet. 00;33;31;09 - 00;33;32;29 Yeah, which is sort of is it referential? 00;33;32;29 - 00;33;35;07 Interestingly enough, though, it's really not a zydeco. 00;33;35;12 - 00;33;39;05 I mean, there's there's I don't remember if there's much of an accordion part 00;33;39;05 - 00;33;42;06 in it, but it's really more of a jump blues. 00;33;43;00 - 00;33;45;15 And it but it does have a very Caribbean feel and the drumming 00;33;45;15 - 00;33;48;24 and the bass playing, but it's really not a zydeco, interestingly enough. 00;33;48;24 - 00;33;51;27 It's kind of like a let's step back, think about that old country life. 00;33;51;27 - 00;33;52;21 We're in the city now. 00;33;52;21 - 00;33;55;02 We still know how to party and here's how we do it. 00;33;55;02 - 00;33;56;27 And we do it at the Zydeco Bar, truly. 00;33;56;27 - 00;33;59;12 And then it's kind of but it's in a bluesy, sort of upbeat style. 00;33;59;25 - 00;34;02;01 But those are the two main ones I could think of. 00;34;02;01 - 00;34;06;18 Do you know much about the migration pattern from Louisiana? 00;34;06;18 - 00;34;11;22 Did most of the Creoles tend to go to Houston, the urban areas, 00;34;11;22 - 00;34;16;29 and then most of the Cajuns go like to Beaumont to the outer outlying areas? 00;34;16;29 - 00;34;19;00 Is that is that necessarily true? Well. 00;34;19;09 - 00;34;20;04 It's hard to say. 00;34;20;04 - 00;34;25;12 I think that the Creoles probably did dominate the migration to Houston, 00;34;25;12 - 00;34;28;25 but I think that the Cajuns see they could assimilate into larger white society. 00;34;29;04 - 00;34;31;27 So so the Creoles had the double minority status. 00;34;31;27 - 00;34;35;06 They were blacks for the most, you know, and identify black. 00;34;35;06 - 00;34;37;13 I mean, most of them were not easily 00;34;37;13 - 00;34;40;09 passing into white society like the lighter skin trails. 00;34;40;21 - 00;34;43;21 So they were going to have to be in black neighborhoods probably. 00;34;43;29 - 00;34;47;08 And then they on top of that, they were going to be in a French black 00;34;47;08 - 00;34;50;20 neighborhood, which is what basically parts of the Fifth Ward are the cages. 00;34;50;20 - 00;34;52;05 On the other hand, you live all over the place 00;34;52;05 - 00;34;55;22 just like any other white ethnic minority that could assimilate 00;34;55;22 - 00;34;58;05 if they would speak the language and act the part, as it were. 00;34;58;11 - 00;34;59;12 And even if they wouldn't, 00;34;59;12 - 00;35;03;00 I mean, Houston's a kind of an open, frontier, multicultural city. 00;35;03;00 - 00;35;05;00 And you can live a lot of they could live a lot of places. 00;35;05;08 - 00;35;08;25 It is true that Cajuns do dominate what they call the Golden Triangle. 00;35;09;11 - 00;35;11;23 I think because, one, there's always been a lot of farmers 00;35;11;23 - 00;35;14;15 in that area that had already been there, had the confidence to help 00;35;14;24 - 00;35;18;03 control the politics and economic structure, and to because 00;35;18;19 - 00;35;21;14 they were the ones who could initially get those jobs in the oil fields. 00;35;21;14 - 00;35;23;25 The blacks couldn't get the jobs. Some in some cases. 00;35;24;03 - 00;35;26;20 And so the Cajuns are really a little more dominant there. 00;35;27;02 - 00;35;27;24 It's a little more 00;35;27;24 - 00;35;31;22 of a rural industrial region as opposed to a densely urban area like Houston. 00;35;32;04 - 00;35;34;27 Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about 00;35;35;29 - 00;35;38;13 the French language, maintain the French language 00;35;38;13 - 00;35;41;00 and actually both of those music styles and 00;35;41;07 - 00;35;44;16 and that if that was more difficult to do in Texas because 00;35;45;06 - 00;35;47;27 really that wasn't something that was, you know, in Louisiana. 00;35;47;27 - 00;35;50;13 I mean, you had a lot of French speaking peoples, but in Texas, 00;35;51;09 - 00;35;54;21 you know, I mean, was that more difficult or did they actually become 00;35;54;22 - 00;35;57;13 a tighter community as a result of language 00;35;57;13 - 00;36;02;15 and having their own music both and I'm talking about both Cajuns and Creole. 00;36;02;15 - 00;36;04;02 I think it was more difficult in Texas. 00;36;04;02 - 00;36;07;05 I think what happened for most people, both Cajun and Creole, is that 00;36;08;01 - 00;36;11;19 the language more rapidly became something not done in public 00;36;11;19 - 00;36;12;29 and only done in private. 00;36;12;29 - 00;36;15;28 Whereas in Louisiana it's still done in public in a lot of places. 00;36;16;24 - 00;36;20;28 And but but public became school and job and maybe church 00;36;21;19 - 00;36;24;04 and the store and all those kinds of places where, 00;36;24;24 - 00;36;26;24 you know, English was going to have to be the language. 00;36;26;24 - 00;36;29;07 And and I think that so it was harder. 00;36;29;07 - 00;36;30;24 I don't I don't think 00;36;30;24 - 00;36;34;12 it shifted it to a smaller sphere of use, to the more private family sphere. 00;36;34;12 - 00;36;37;19 And maybe it helped knit families a bit, but I don't think it helped the language, 00;36;37;25 - 00;36;41;18 you know, as a functioning behavior as a whole. 00;36;41;18 - 00;36;46;10 I'm one of those people that doesn't believe that you have to have 00;36;46;10 - 00;36;50;28 the language to maintain the culture in this society, in American society. 00;36;50;28 - 00;36;55;07 I think that the American model I think it's good if you can keep the language. 00;36;55;07 - 00;36;59;08 And I think it's it often indexes a deeper level of cultural understanding. 00;36;59;18 - 00;37;03;01 But I think that it is quite possible to 00;37;05;11 - 00;37;08;04 maintain the culture on the frontier with sort. 00;37;08;05 - 00;37;10;02 I mean, playing the accordion and, 00;37;10;02 - 00;37;12;20 you know, in a Cajun style is a pretty dramatic thing. 00;37;12;29 - 00;37;17;25 And I mean, Jacki doesn't really speak much French, and I always intrigued me. 00;37;18;01 - 00;37;20;28 The old guys that migrated from Louisiana do speak the French. 00;37;20;28 - 00;37;23;18 Jackie Kelly doesn't really he knows some words and he can get by. 00;37;23;29 - 00;37;25;04 But it's interesting. 00;37;25;04 - 00;37;28;25 He does a version of Okie from Muskogee called Cajun from Church Point, 00;37;29;07 - 00;37;32;13 which is an all time classic produced by Huey Mo and Crazy Cajun records. 00;37;32;13 - 00;37;33;22 The Tool Spinning Crawfish. 00;37;33;22 - 00;37;38;02 It's a wonderful tune and I love how, you know, in the chorus 00;37;38;02 - 00;37;41;29 in Okie from Muskogee is love and still the biggest thrill of all. 00;37;42;07 - 00;37;45;02 And, you know, in the chorus in Cajun is 00;37;45;08 - 00;37;48;13 a lot more slow play grow thrill of all, you know. 00;37;48;18 - 00;37;50;19 I mean, he switches right in the middle of the line and 00;37;50;24 - 00;37;54;08 and I think that tells you that one doing 00;37;54;25 - 00;37;58;26 an outsider song in their style, a two step, they're singing about themselves 00;37;58;26 - 00;38;02;03 and how much they love their culture, and they're doing it bilingually. 00;38;02;03 - 00;38;03;13 And I really think 00;38;04;12 - 00;38;05;07 it's really a matter 00;38;05;07 - 00;38;08;09 how you control the esthetic, whether it's language or music or whatever, 00;38;08;09 - 00;38;12;27 more than the sort of concrete trade oriented question of is it English? 00;38;12;27 - 00;38;15;11 Is it French? You know, how do you control the dialog? 00;38;15;15 - 00;38;18;15 And there's a Cajun form of English and there's and there's 00;38;18;20 - 00;38;20;05 Cajun music in English. 00;38;20;05 - 00;38;23;10 And, you know, I would side with trying to preserve the language, 00;38;23;10 - 00;38;26;25 but I don't think it is the defining factor of identity. 00;38;27;15 - 00;38;31;07 And knowing what I do about the the Tejano conjunto tradition 00;38;31;07 - 00;38;34;18 I see, there's definitely a similarity in some of the newer 00;38;34;27 - 00;38;38;18 performers on the level of Jackie who are doing a lot of code 00;38;38;19 - 00;38;41;16 switching with the music know and I think maybe 00;38;43;01 - 00;38;45;25 I'm just wondering now that I'm thinking about just the fact 00;38;45;25 - 00;38;49;07 that the sense that the tradition, the style of the music 00;38;49;13 - 00;38;52;14 has been maintained, that as long as you maintain, 00;38;52;14 - 00;38;55;16 as long as you stay within the music that you know, you can 00;38;55;22 - 00;38;58;01 you can code switch like that and you can do that. 00;38;58;01 - 00;39;01;06 But but still, since the tradition has to has been so 00;39;01;06 - 00;39;04;18 firmly established, you know, it's it's there, right? 00;39;04;19 - 00;39;07;05 You've got that. Well, the flip flop of it is this. 00;39;07;15 - 00;39;11;29 If there's going to be a point of view that that only can only be sung 00;39;11;29 - 00;39;12;28 in the native language. 00;39;12;28 - 00;39;16;11 And then the kids are not in that language and the kids go off their way 00;39;16;20 - 00;39;19;28 then than is the culture preserved if the kids don't stick with it, 00;39;19;28 - 00;39;21;29 with the genealogy and the generations. 00;39;21;29 - 00;39;22;16 On the other hand, 00;39;22;16 - 00;39;25;17 if the kids find new ways to express it, including new music styles, 00;39;26;02 - 00;39;28;10 and they may remain affiliated with the group, you know, 00;39;29;08 - 00;39;31;24 then in a sense, the culture isn't maintained. 00;39;31;24 - 00;39;34;01 I mean, they're the tangible representations of the culture. 00;39;34;06 - 00;39;37;11 That group that you had lost, which I'm not Jamaica's. 00;39;37;19 - 00;39;40;12 I mean, I think then they sang mostly in Spanish, but 00;39;41;18 - 00;39;41;25 their 00;39;41;25 - 00;39;44;28 influence is clearly, you know, rap and hip hop and all this rock and roll. 00;39;45;06 - 00;39;48;04 And so I really think that there's certain points 00;39;48;04 - 00;39;51;14 at which one raises serious questions about how you identify your group 00;39;51;23 - 00;39;55;10 and, you know, if you're willing to extend those parameters. 00;39;55;10 - 00;39;59;20 On the other hand, you know, I know these old Creole guys and I, I understand this. 00;39;59;20 - 00;40;03;20 And I feel for them who say that these young kids, they sing in English. 00;40;03;27 - 00;40;07;16 They don't know what they're singing, what this music's about, and in effect, 00;40;07;16 - 00;40;09;11 what they're complaining about, to my way of thinking 00;40;09;11 - 00;40;10;13 ultimately is not so much 00;40;10;13 - 00;40;12;02 that they sing in English, but that they haven't 00;40;12;02 - 00;40;14;07 listened to their elders about anything. 00;40;14;07 - 00;40;18;06 And so a kid like, you know, like a Taron Simian can come out 00;40;18;06 - 00;40;21;04 and be 19 years old and be picked up by New York producers 00;40;21;12 - 00;40;25;03 and not have to have gone to school with his, you know, great uncle, but bad career 00;40;25;03 - 00;40;27;09 because somebody else is offering him a bunch of money 00;40;27;09 - 00;40;28;28 to play at the Lone Star Cafe. 00;40;28;28 - 00;40;32;13 That is almost more worrisome is ironically, the popularity of the culture 00;40;32;20 - 00;40;35;27 threatens it more than pop American culture. 00;40;36;08 - 00;40;37;28 Yeah. Isn't that a bizarre twist? 00;40;37;28 - 00;40;39;17 But I think that's the truth. 00;40;39;17 - 00;40;41;00 Yeah, that seems to be. 00;40;41;00 - 00;40;43;14 And I'm in while we're on that sort of subject. 00;40;43;14 - 00;40;46;10 I'm glad we're kind of headed that way because I wanted to talk about 00;40;46;10 - 00;40;50;00 just the popularization of this music a little bit with you since, 00;40;50;08 - 00;40;51;26 you know, it was brought up in a symposium. 00;40;51;26 - 00;40;55;14 And I think it would be good for us to talk about that a little bit, 00;40;56;17 - 00;40;58;20 just the effect that it's having back 00;40;58;20 - 00;41;02;18 on the traditional music itself and whether that's good or bad. 00;41;02;18 - 00;41;03;26 And uh. 00;41;04;00 - 00;41;06;16 Well, in the larger accordion framework, I mean, I think 00;41;06;16 - 00;41;09;21 Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex 00;41;09;21 - 00;41;12;01 probably in the order of Creole, Cajun and Tex-Mex 00;41;12;19 - 00;41;17;15 are driving national interest and in the acceptance of accordions 00;41;17;15 - 00;41;20;17 and other from other realms by the non members of ethnic groups 00;41;20;27 - 00;41;25;11 of these ethnic groups that play the accordion. 00;41;25;11 - 00;41;29;16 The popularity of the culture has helped encourage young people to feel like it's 00;41;30;00 - 00;41;31;06 accepted by the mainstream. 00;41;31;06 - 00;41;34;17 It is palatable and it has done some good things. 00;41;34;17 - 00;41;37;16 It has also disrupted some things. 00;41;38;08 - 00;41;41;17 And you know, there are those members of the regional scene 00;41;41;17 - 00;41;44;29 in Cajun, French, Louisiana and Texas, I think, who, you know, 00;41;45;00 - 00;41;48;04 kind of anything goes anything's Cajun if you're just got the right name. 00;41;48;04 - 00;41;51;15 No, if you like to eat boudin, I mean, and there's this sort of loose attitude 00;41;51;15 - 00;41;52;12 about the whole thing. 00;41;53;17 - 00;41;56;03 I'm sure that that's not just part of the French style 00;41;56;03 - 00;41;58;22 and approaching the cultural stuff generally. 00;42;00;13 - 00;42;03;04 You know, there's been a commodification that's gone on, but, 00;42;03;07 - 00;42;08;01 you know, in a way, I almost think that even the popularity has served to, one, 00;42;08;20 - 00;42;11;06 give different avenues to people to express themselves 00;42;11;06 - 00;42;15;01 and validate, be validated and to back home in the little dance halls 00;42;15;01 - 00;42;19;01 and in the mom and pop stores and all these all these places. 00;42;19;08 - 00;42;22;22 I mean, in a sense, the pop stuff shields those people who are really doing 00;42;22;22 - 00;42;25;17 rootsy stuff from having to deal with the sort of 00;42;25;28 - 00;42;28;12 the fast moving tourists coming through. 00;42;29;13 - 00;42;30;05 What happens. 00;42;30;05 - 00;42;32;07 It's sad, though, as if, you know, 00;42;32;07 - 00;42;35;12 record companies won't record, say, a really traditionalist performer 00;42;35;12 - 00;42;37;21 because they know they can sell a lot more records with somebody else. 00;42;37;21 - 00;42;38;23 That could be a problem. 00;42;38;23 - 00;42;40;22 And that is sometimes a problem. 00;42;40;22 - 00;42;43;17 But I think Cajuns and Creole, they've taken it pretty well. 00;42;43;17 - 00;42;45;26 They're very flexible, adaptive cultures. 00;42;46;06 - 00;42;47;19 I mean, the Cajuns, you know, I mean, shit, 00;42;47;19 - 00;42;50;11 they came out of the land of the Snows and they made it in the swamps. 00;42;50;21 - 00;42;53;04 And not that that can be said for a lot of groups. 00;42;53;06 - 00;42;54;28 I mean, it's an amazing migration. 00;42;54;28 - 00;42;57;10 A lot of people would tend to just die out through that. 00;42;57;19 - 00;43;01;22 And, you know, Creoles that managed to be minorities within minorities, within 00;43;02;06 - 00;43;06;06 within a minority region of of a state that's considered a banana republic. 00;43;06;06 - 00;43;10;12 Louisiana, and similarly in Texas, be a minority within a minority 00;43;10;12 - 00;43;12;18 in a state that everyone thinks is filled. Cowboys. 00;43;12;29 - 00;43;15;25 So it's though the Creole is there like cowboy hats 00;43;15;25 - 00;43;17;28 you may have noticed elsewhere all the cages 00;43;17;28 - 00;43;21;12 look all the Cajuns in Creole have bands named Playboys after the Texas Playboys. 00;43;21;12 - 00;43;23;29 So there's an interesting modern influence there, too. 00;43;24;08 - 00;43;27;08 But but I don't think I think the popularity like anything 00;43;27;10 - 00;43;30;24 I mean, just like insularity, all insularity would be bad for the people 00;43;31;03 - 00;43;33;14 and I think all popularity would be bad for them. 00;43;33;14 - 00;43;36;14 And I think if there's a balance between people who can stay 00;43;36;14 - 00;43;39;16 at one level and also avenues for people to express themselves 00;43;39;16 - 00;43;43;10 and gain some economic power, then they start controlling it. 00;43;43;17 - 00;43;46;20 And then, you know, then if some if Paul McCartney wants a Cajun sound, he's 00;43;46;20 - 00;43;49;24 got to come to, you know, to Lafayette to get it. 00;43;49;24 - 00;43;53;22 And a better that than a Lafayette musician deciding to be a rock and roller 00;43;53;22 - 00;43;55;25 and going to England to get a McCartney sound, you know? 00;43;56;02 - 00;43;58;29 I mean, it's like there are these funny tradeoffs that go on 00;43;58;29 - 00;44;03;07 with popularization, but sometimes it does mean in this society, economic power. 00;44;03;08 - 00;44;04;15 Yeah. Yeah. 00;44;04;15 - 00;44;09;06 So do you think that the accordion is going to sort of benefit from the. 00;44;09;06 - 00;44;10;16 Accordion. Himself? 00;44;10;16 - 00;44;12;08 You know, well, I don't know if there are those 00;44;12;08 - 00;44;16;02 who believe the accordion has sort of an in an inanimate cosmic sort of, 00;44;16;11 - 00;44;18;00 you know, thing that's just going, 00;44;18;00 - 00;44;18;28 you know, maybe because there's been 00;44;18;28 - 00;44;21;27 so much joking about it over the years and so much great music played on it. 00;44;23;08 - 00;44;24;02 I think, you know, we 00;44;24;02 - 00;44;27;25 live at a time of a lot of cross-cultural, conscious experimentation. 00;44;27;25 - 00;44;30;15 I think the accordion will benefit from that. 00;44;30;15 - 00;44;34;13 I would rather see, though, you know, I find it tiresome 00;44;34;13 - 00;44;37;03 if some performance artist plays the accordion, you know, poorly 00;44;37;10 - 00;44;38;02 and uses it 00;44;38;02 - 00;44;41;19 as, you know, kind of like a hip new thing to add to a rock band or whatever. 00;44;42;08 - 00;44;45;01 What I what I'd like to see is, is for a lot of these groups 00;44;45;01 - 00;44;48;07 to be accepted on more or less their own terms as really great players 00;44;48;07 - 00;44;51;15 within their traditions and, you know, the accordion could be then like a guitar, 00;44;51;15 - 00;44;53;18 a lot of people will pick it up and do their own thing with it. 00;44;54;21 - 00;44;55;10 I don't know. 00;44;55;10 - 00;44;59;21 I mean, I think that the accordion is sufficiently different yet 00;45;00;09 - 00;45;03;03 and, you know, harder to obtain in a music store 00;45;03;04 - 00;45;06;10 than, say, a guitar that it's going to be a while before the accordion 00;45;06;10 - 00;45;10;08 is really something that everybody decides they want to play. 00;45;10;13 - 00;45;13;22 But I think in the natural extensions of the communities, natural extensions 00;45;13;22 - 00;45;16;18 of the Cajun, Creole, you know, Tex-Mex communities, 00;45;17;09 - 00;45;20;09 the basic thing is the next generation is going to play the accordion. 00;45;20;14 - 00;45;21;09 And in fact, it's over. 00;45;21;09 - 00;45;24;01 It's eclipsed the fiddle in Louisiana, which, you know, the fiddle, 00;45;24;10 - 00;45;26;11 if anything, we need help for the fiddle there 00;45;27;01 - 00;45;31;18 for Cajun and Zydeco are the you know, you can learn to play it pretty quickly. 00;45;31;24 - 00;45;33;27 Basic stuff, because the notes are in tune already. 00;45;33;27 - 00;45;35;13 You know, it's got to hit them. 00;45;35;13 - 00;45;37;13 I'm not saying you can play it well, 00;45;37;13 - 00;45;40;01 but you can get you can move pretty quickly at first. 00;45;40;01 - 00;45;43;12 So if you're halfway in the culture and halfway wanting to do it, you can do it. 00;45;43;12 - 00;45;44;29 And I think that's really happening. 00;45;44;29 - 00;45;47;05 I mean, there's so many young Cajun and Zydeco bands 00;45;47;05 - 00;45;50;01 and there's so many good young commandos, you know, it's happening. 00;45;50;01 - 00;45;52;00 Yeah, it's happening big. Time in Texas. 00;45;52;00 - 00;45;53;04 And I'm just wondering if it's going 00;45;53;04 - 00;45;56;13 to start happening outside of Texas because you know. 00;45;56;14 - 00;45;58;22 Well, me, but I don't know. 00;45;58;22 - 00;46;01;27 But but I think what will happen if the good side of it 00;46;01;27 - 00;46;03;07 would be for the European groups. 00;46;03;07 - 00;46;06;20 I think they need some recognition the polka and you know, groups need 00;46;06;24 - 00;46;08;21 some recognition. Yeah, 00;46;09;27 - 00;46;12;10 yeah. But 00;46;12;10 - 00;46;14;06 I don't think the button accordion is going to be 00;46;14;06 - 00;46;16;20 I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it's diatonic 00;46;16;20 - 00;46;20;12 and that right off the bat, you know, it's just not limits. 00;46;20;17 - 00;46;21;07 Yeah. I mean. 00;46;21;07 - 00;46;26;07 Well in I mean and it's and a harmonica is much smaller, 00;46;26;07 - 00;46;28;28 you know, and a harmonica has an established role in blues and rock, 00;46;29;17 - 00;46;31;18 which are, you know, the dominant, maybe some dominant.